In February Kostas Pliakos of the Greek magazine HOT DOC interviewed Alan Woods, posing questions about the prospects of Marxism, the nature of SYRIZA, the future of the EU, whether capitalism can recover from the present crisis, the prospects of war and the rise of the Golden Dawn in Greece.
“Reform or Revolution”? For Alan Woods this dilemma was answered long ago. How relevant today is this question that Rosa Luxemburg raised a century ago and dare the left today ask that same question?
Together with Ted Grant, Woods was one of the main theoreticians of Marxism during the 1970s and 1980s in Britain. He was a member of the Labour Party and part of the “Militant Tendency” (at a time when the Labour Party was not totally cut off from the left) until 1983 when Labour decided to expel their “extreme radical tendency” from the party. Woods today is the secretary of the International Marxist Tendency and an analyst on the political website In Defence of Marxism (www.marxist.com). He is a defender of the “Bolivarian revolution” and was a personal friend of Hugo Chavez who publicly declared that he had read Woods’ books.
See the full interview hereAlan Woods was in Athens as a guest of the Communist Tendency of SYRIZA to mark the occasion of the publication of their fortnightly paper and the republication of Wood’s book “Reason in Revolt”. HOT DOC met and talked with him about the left and its dilemmas, the crisis in Europe and the threat of the far right.
You recently wrote that the spectre of Marxism still haunts the bourgeoisie. How is this spectre taking shape in Europe today? The EU is experiencing an unprecedented crisis and this spectre you talk about has not yet managed to transform itself into a political proposal. Does this spectre only belong to theory?
Capitalism today is undergoing a serious crisis. The biggest since the 1930s and they have no idea whatsoever how they are going to solve this. Wherever you look, from Greece to the USA with its enormous debt, the crisis is very serious.
There was a meeting in London in 2009 where The Economist had invited the most famous economists in the world. From the beginning of this meeting to the end the guests were wondering: “what the hell is happening? We had not predicted something like that”. They were insisting that Marx was wrong when he referred to the crisis of capitalism. Well, he was not wrong. In this meeting Krugman said that for the last 30 years macroeconomic theory has been “spectacularly useless at best, and positively harmful at worst”. The issue therefore is that the bourgeois do not know what to do. Some of these economists have even admitted that Marx was right.
To answer your question on how the spectre of Marx is taking shape, look at the events of the last 12 months. We had an uprising in Turkey, Brazil, Egypt and elsewhere. In Greece, how many strikes have you had in the last years? So there is a worldwide movement and these people today are much more open to the ideas of Marxism than in the past.
The problem is elsewhere. The problem is the lack of leadership. Look at the left in Europe. None of these parliamentary left parties are adequately expressing the real mood that exists in society and I’m sorry to say that SYRIZA in Greece isn’t adequately expressing this mood either. There was an opinion poll in Greece a few months ago, which showed that 23% of the people want a revolution and 63% want a fundamental change, which is the same really. So the goal is to organize these people and channel their anger.
Greece today has maybe the most powerful left, if SYRIZA can be considered as left. But within the borders of the EU it can never be politics as usual. First of all, do you think SYRIZA is a leftist party? Do you think a SYRIZA government could bring a reversal of policy in Greece without breaking the line with Brussels?
The rise of SYRIZA is an impressive development and there is no doubt that it reflects a left shift in the mood of the masses in Greece. The problem with the leadership of SYRIZA, as with many other left parties, is that they don’t have a clear Marxist position. Their message is confused and, unfortunately, as they come closer to power they are less and less radical in what they say. They give me the impression that they are trying to convince the bankers that they should not worry. This is not good at all, even from a practical point of view because the Greek people, for example, are at their limits and what they are asking for is radical changes.
The only real choice is a left leadership that will speak the truth. The solution is to break with capitalism, to break with the troika. If I were Tsipras I would go on television and I would just tell the truth, that we need to cancel the moratorium. However, that is not enough. At the same time I would say that we need to nationalize, without compensation, the land, the banks and big businesses. I think that if Tsipras did that, he would have the support of the majority of the people.
To come back to your question, can Greece succeed alone? The answer is “no”. However, this anger of the people and the inequality do not exist only in Greece but in the whole of Europe. Look at Spain or Portugal for example. Everywhere there are powerful movements. If a government of SYRIZA were to call on the workers of Spain, Italy and even Germany to support it, I believe they would find that support.
Today, in the European Union, democratic freedoms and the welfare state are being sacrificed for the sake of the banks and the euro. Based on historical experience, what kind of future might such a Union have?
The European Union has always been a union in the interests of the bankers and capitalists not of “Europe”. I’m an internationalist. I’m in favour of a unified Europe, but it cannot be achieved on the basis of capitalism. Have we overcome the national division in Europe? No. The Euro made things worse. The idea is obviously good if you had a socialist Europe. It would be done on the basis of a democratic voluntary Union, on the basis of equality, not a union that is dominated by bankers and one country, Germany.
German imperialism was what drove us to the First World War. Today Germany has conquered what it wants by economic means. The introduction of the Euro has sharpened the national contradictions. In the past the countries of the south when they had financial problems could devaluate their currency. Today they don’t have this tool and the only thing they can do is an “internal devaluation”, that means an attack on living standards. This is not happening only in Greece but across Europe, across the world. The bourgeoisie at this moment is attacking all the gains that the working class has made in the last fifty years. They want to push us back to the Stone Age. Look at what is happening around the world, from Europe to Brazil and from Africa to Thailand – instability everywhere. Therefore, it is not a crisis in Europe but a crisis of capitalism worldwide.
Capitalism, however, always finds a way to overcome its crisis. Is it possible that it does not have a safety valve for today’s crisis?
This is an interesting question. Lenin pointed out that there is no such thing as a final crisis of capitalism; the capitalist system will always recover even from the deepest crisis, unless is overthrown by the working class. This is a general statement but, you know, it doesn’t tell me anything about the specific situation that we are going through today.
In 1964 the total credit in the USA was one trillion dollars. In 2007 it was fifty trillion dollars. This means that capitalism went beyond its limits and expanded demand artificially. Marx explained this in the Communist Manifesto. Capitalism can get around a crisis by preparing a bigger crisis in the future. So, by avoiding the crisis twenty years ago, we are now today in a deeper crisis and the bill is being passed to the poor people. What kind of tools could capitalism use? Let us see, for example, an expansion of credit. This was the last tool it had. But that is no longer possible. What about low interest rates? But interest rates are already close to zero. And what about a return to Keynesianism through big state spending? What state has the money today to spend what is required?
In one of your latest articles you mentioned 1914 and compared the conditions that led to the First World War to 2014. Do you think that today’s conditions can lead Europe to similar unpleasant situations?
Like war? The answer is “No”. The concrete conditions are entirely different today. War between whom? In both world wars Germany was fighting to conquer markets. They don’t need to do that now. Germany already controls Europe through its economy. Would Greece declare war on Germany? Or France? I don’t think so. The correlation of forces is different. In any case it is the big stage that matters. The war is taking place at another level. That’s why we see countries trying to form common markets. The possibility of war between the big powers of the USA, Russia, China and Europe does not exist because of concrete reasons, but there will be small wars all the time, such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, which is terrible.
In Greece the neo-Nazis are the third biggest party. The far right in Europe is becoming increasingly strong. Does this scare you, and why did the Europeans react to the crisis by turning to the far right and not to the left?
This turn towards the far right reflects the enormous discontent and frustration of the people towards the existing parties. In Britain for example, the Labour Party should win the next elections, but with the present right-wing leadership that they have the British people wonder “what is the difference with the Tories?” The same is the case in the rest of the European countries. You see Social Democratic parties that agree with the cuts, austerity and the only thing they say is that they can manage it better. That is why PASOK has collapsed in Greece. In Greece it isn’t true to say that there is a swing to the right, because SYRIZA is still on top which reflects a swing to the left actually. However, the rise of Golden Dawn is a warning.
People wonder whether there is still the possibility of the return of fascism in Europe. We cannot compare that Europe with today’s Europe. Back then fascism leaned on the middle class, the teachers, the students, and the white-collar workers. Today, these people are the ones who are taking to the streets and protesting. Today the ruling class controls the situation not via the far right but with the help of the labour leaders. This is the truth. It is the labour leaders and the unions that keep capitalism alive.
Even in Greece at this moment in time the ruling class does not want the Golden Dawn in power yet – I repeat, yet. That’s why they took some action against them recently. If they tried to move down that road now, at the very least, it would provoke civil war. The ruling class in Greece is not confident that they would win such a civil war. That is why they need to keep these mad dogs on a leash.
However, the problem is this. I believe that SYRIZA will win the next election. If they were to carry out a socialist policy there would be no problem, there would be enormous enthusiasm. The right wing would be eradicated. But if they pursue a policy of reconciliation with the banks and the troika there will be a tremendous mood of anger and then it is very likely that the next government in Greece would be a coalition with the Golden Dawn. I hope not, but you see that’s the role of reformism, it prepares the way for reaction.
(February 2014)